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date of birth based on email from Betty detoy: 12 2002 My Aunt and Uncle were here, also my mother. I found out in listening to them talk that my Great Great Grandfather, John Jacob married to Anna Schutt had at least two wives, and had at least 9 children. I just thought I would let you know this, as maybe this makes more sense with the information you have. They also had told me from the very beginning that Herman (my Great Grandfather) was the youngest, and most of his brothers and sisters were already grown when he was born. His brother John Jacob was two years older than Herman. John Jacob (Herman's brother) had also lived in the central valley of California, in case you see a John Jacob in the census there, it is probably him. Herman and Anna did not move to Sonoma County from San Francisco until their two children, Walter and Ida (my grandmother), were grown. Just an update to a confusing puzzle. It is amazing, if a question is asked......they do not know, but in conversation they really do know. Of course they are in their 80's. Hope this finds you and Patty enjoying the desert. Betty